Thursday, December 4, 2008

An End to Abortion

The abortion issue is one of the most controversial and divisive subjects today. Everyone has an opinion about it, and everyone’s opinions are strongly and unshakably held. It divides liberals and conservatives, and also divides many of the different factions in the conservative movement.

Right now, the pro-life position is the dominant one in the Republican party, as it must be, if the GOP wants to win elections. There are a lot of people in the Republican party—Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, Bobby Jindal, as well as millions (perhaps tens of millions) of social conservative voters—who feel strongly about abortion, and would like nothing more than to see it banned.

It won’t be, at least not in the near future. No democratic government can act in advance of the moral will of its people. And the American people support legalized abortion.

A 2006 Rasmussen poll has some revealing findings about America’s attitude towards abortion. A solid majority (55%) believes that abortion is usually morally wrong; a relatively insignificant 32% disagree. (One wonders how the other twenty percent feel—do they have an opinion they are afraid to share, or are they simply unable to decide?). So far, the findings look encouraging for pro-lifers.

But when asked about their feelings towards legalized abortion, people feel differently. Only 47% feel that it is too easy to get an abortion in the United States, and 42% feel that the difficulty of getting an abortion is either “too hard” or “about right.” And bear in mind that the United State’s abortion laws are very lax—it is already quite easy to get an abortion.

Granted, this is only one poll, but it is consistent with other polls on this issue. And it is backed up by the behavior of actual voters. South Dakota, hardly a liberal mecca, has twice (in 2006 and 2008) attempted to pass referendums outlawing abortion. Both failed, by sizeable margins. And South Dakota is a very conservative state.

It seems that most Americans are uncomfortable with the morality of abortion—but like having the option available. In a sense, both the pro- and anti-abortion sides lose—abortion is still considered wrong by most people, but will remain legal for the foreseeable future.

Will abortion ever become illegal? I believe it will, and future Americans will be shocked that it was ever widely accepted. But this will only happen once it becomes obsolete and no longer needed.

It’s a pattern—people awaken to injustice only after whatever use the wrong served is no longer needed. The abolitionist movement existed since our nation’s creation—but only became widespread after advances in technology rendered slavery unnecessary. (True, many of the Founding Fathers personally opposed slavery, but caved when Southern states objected to any proscriptions on the practice). Before the Industrial Revolution (which brought many agricultural innovations), slavery was accepted by most as a necessary evil. After the Industrial Revolution, more and more people came to support abolition.

The same phenomenon can be seen with the history of Jim Crow laws. In the first half of the twentieth century, it was beneficial for white Southerners to keep blacks in poverty—there wasn’t much of an economic pie in the South, and it profited whites to keep blacks from too much prosperity and power.

After World War II, the economy boomed, and there was more to go around. It was at that point that integration became a popular cause with whites. Segregation wasn’t needed anymore, so it was phased out, with a great deal of moral indignation by abruptly morally offended whites.

A final example: environmentalism. People have been concerned about the environment since the advent of technology—it’s not hard to find Victorian writers, for example, complaining about factory pollution. But nobody cared much—until relatively clean energy came along. Suddenly, the survival of our fragile plant became the most pressing issue imaginable.

I believe that we will see a similar pattern with abortion. Eventually, medical advances will make birth control one hundred percent reliable, to the point that there will be almost no unintended pregnancies. Then, people will have their eyes opened, and realize what a horrible and frankly unnecessary crime abortion is. After a short but morally heartening battle, abortion will be prohibited, giving people a valuable chance to feel good about themselves.

I hope I’m wrong. But given our current political climate, it seems like my scenario is all too plausible.

62 Comments:

At December 5, 2008 at 8:06 AM , Blogger Z-man said...

What I don't get and I posed this question over at my own blog is this: Practically everyone these days says they're at least personally opposed to abortion. I'm not talking RTLers here just a general statement that even the choicers make so you'd think this is a good start, it's heartening but then you look at the latest abortion stats and you go somebody ain't telling the truth. It's like everyone says it's wrong and then they go out and have one.

 
At December 5, 2008 at 8:12 AM , Blogger TREXPRESS said...

Personally, I'd rather see someone have an abortion, than bring a child into the world when they aren't financially, emotionally, or mentally capable of raising the child. There are many legitimate reasons to do so, regardless of what the religious right, and the US gov't want you to believe. Both are operating under some very archaic beliefs. In a free society, freedom to choose is a vital aspect.
I think it’s the women’s right to choose, not mine and not yours. This is still the USA at least until Jan 20th it is..

As far as "killing a child that is unborn", let me say this...if the fetus couldn't survive outside of the womb, with only a degree of medical aid, is it really alive? I don't think so. And if it is a child as of the moment of conception, why is it that the gov't only gives a tax break from when the child is born?

Furthermore, sexual freedom is another type of freedom, that you must take responsibly. For the life of me though, I can't figure out why you need a lisence to hunt, fish, or drive, yet anyone can have a child, without proving competence.

People are gonna quote the bible quite a bit on this one...be ready. One question to them, you do know that in the same part of the bible you're quoting (meaning the old testament) it also says that its perfectly fine to sell your daughter into slavery like they do in many 3rd world countries.., and to publicly stone a disobedient child. You can't pick and choose which parts are right, but its an amazing ability for those of faith to turn suddenly blind or offer excuses for that which they don't like.
I say throw the abortion issue completely out of politics. It’s a religious issue not a political one.

 
At December 5, 2008 at 8:12 AM , Blogger TREXPRESS said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At December 5, 2008 at 8:12 AM , Blogger TREXPRESS said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At December 5, 2008 at 8:28 AM , Blogger TREXPRESS said...

You are RIGHT when you say :..
and also divides many of the different factions in the conservative movement.

Right now, the pro-life position is the dominant one in the Republican party, as it must be, if the GOP wants to win elections.

And BINGO!..so the conservative's wind up losing.

 
At December 5, 2008 at 10:11 AM , Blogger Z-man said...

Well geez TR I think you'd agree this was a very special election no? African-Americans overwhelmingly vote Democratic anyway and here comes along a very intelligent and charismatic African-American liberal (or moderate?). The biggest factor in electing Obama was Making History, it was the right person at the right time, and your perceived social conservative negative influence, well put it this way, it wasn't a big topic at work is all I'm saying.

 
At December 5, 2008 at 10:20 AM , Blogger Z-man said...

Daniel, the views expressed by TR here is why the abortion debate is so tiring for me, same old points ably refuted by the pro-life side time and again leads to same old points. It's why we won't see an end to abortion in our lifetime, sadly. The choicers don't really want to be reminded of the morality of abortion, they focus on the necessity of abortion in their eyes and so all arguments have to be tailored to that end. The root cause of abortion is personal, it has to do with how one views sex. I would summarize the choice side as being about pleasure without consequences, the life side as pleasure within a certain context usually marriage and so with such diametrically opposed views it ain't gonna happen. I think what probably sticks in alot of people's craws when they feel forced to have an abortion although they never say this is the sex probably wasn't even worth it, certainly not worth a dead fetus, most often it's sloppy sex, probably drinking involved and not a very well-thought out process. I would even go so far as to say that if your 100% effective birth control method became a reality Daniel many people would just choose not to use it.

 
At December 5, 2008 at 1:36 PM , Blogger TREXPRESS said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At December 5, 2008 at 4:04 PM , Blogger TREXPRESS said...

TREXPRESS said...
Z-man said...
the views expressed by TR here is why the abortion debate is so tiring for me, same old points ably refuted by the pro-life side time and again leads to same old points


Well DUH!
If the shoe fits...wear it.

 
At December 5, 2008 at 6:35 PM , Blogger DaBlade said...

TREXPRESS - a 2-year-old couldn't survive on his or her own without intervention. I have the perfect gift for the "pro death" crowd people like you... A new board game just in time for winter solstice!

 
At December 5, 2008 at 10:20 PM , Blogger Erik said...

There is definitely a moral issue here but that isn't what we are really fighting about is it. What we end up fighting about is the religious crazy people wanting to legislate their faith through abortion laws. Now i think abortion is wrong but i am not sure making it illegal is the answer to the problem. Maybe the liberal illuminati have a point here. But there needs to be LOTS of restrictions. I think abortion should be next to illegal.

 
At December 6, 2008 at 5:12 AM , Blogger TREXPRESS said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At December 6, 2008 at 5:34 AM , Blogger TREXPRESS said...

DaBlade said...
TREXPRESS - I have the perfect gift for the "pro death" crowd people like you...


"pro death" crowd ?
See what I mean!

There sure are Plenty of these a- holes on this board aren't there!


Erik said...
There is definitely a moral issue here
Yes it’s all about the religious crazy people! And that’s why it SHOULD be left OUT of politics.
Abortion is a religious issue not a political one.
Pro-choice means that women should be the ones to make the choice for themselves, NOT THE GOVERNMENT. If a woman feels that an abortion is necessary for her, it should be up to her to work that with her morals instead of the government trying to push their morals on everyone else.
I have read right here on this very blog people constantly saying that THE GOVERNMENT. Should NOT decide what is right and what is wrong for us. Like smoking and or driving without a seat belt, so why now when it suits YOUR RELIGIOUS purpose, should the GOVERNMENT put their hands into this issue? Because you are now on the same side?
I say that a "bunch of old men" like John McCain should not tell a woman what right she should or should not have, but you should have that right?
And stop telling us that it’s murder, the law says it's NOT murder. The law -- Constitution and Roe v. Wade --- says it is not illegal. But you religious nuts want to twist the law to suit your whacked out beliefs that the state should intervene in private lives and meddle in the confidential relationship between a woman and her doctor.
It's not going to happen. So get over it.
I pose a serious question to you: why don't you live your life the way you think is right and mind your own business?
You sure know something about being a whiner, since you and your ilk (the anti-choice group) whine an awful lot about your self-righteousness and how to impose your sense of morality on everyone else.

 
At December 6, 2008 at 7:12 AM , Blogger David#999 said...

Trexpress you make some very good points here. The term "pro-abortion" is a buzzword meant to portray pro-choice activists in a more negative connotation. The terms "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion" do mean different things to different people...
But the whole abortion/anti-abortion debate is chock full of loaded buzzwords aimed at painting one's position (or opposition) in positive (or negative) way.

The anti-choice movement is primarily a religion driven thing.
Pro-choice means options. Pro-life means none.
IF A WOMAN DECIDES SHE NO LONGER WANTS TO HAVE A PREGNANCY OCCURRING IN HER OWN BODY TO CONTINUE...SHE SHOULD HAVE THAT RIGHT! PERIOD!
It does not matter one bit what she thought or wanted before conception.
If she wants to terminate a pregnancy occurring in her own body...she should absolutely, without qualification HAVE THAT RIGHT.
I don't think it's right or wrong. I think that decision should be left to those who are actually dealing with the situation. And no one else.
I am so tired of this subject being tossed around. I can't for the life of me understand why outsiders want to vote on interferring in the life of someone they don't even know. This should never be up for discussion. These yentles should work at taking care of their own life. It they don't have need or don't believe that she have an abortion, then don't do it but why is it necessary for them to tell someone else what they can do with their body when. I really don't understand the women who are involved with this decision making for other women.

 
At December 6, 2008 at 7:33 AM , Blogger Bob said...

Daniel, when you say that "The abortion issue is one of the most controversial and divisive subjects today. Everyone has an opinion about it, and everyone’s opinions are strongly and unshakably held. It divides liberals and conservatives, and also divides many of the different factions in the conservative movement."

You are so correct, and this topic will never be solved on a blog or in an election.
But if I may throw in my 2 cents I would have to say that so many of you “High and Mighty” people here are always talking about an Americans RIGHTS!. Well a woman's right to control her own reproduction is not a matter of "convenience" -- it is a fundamental human right. It is the right to control her own life. It is the right to control her own body. It enables her to achieve physical, economic, and familial security before having (or having more) children so that she can best ensure the physical and emotional well-being of her children.
Maybe not every woman will always make the best choice. But no one else is in a better position to make such often-difficult decisions about her life and her family.
And lets not forget that before they legalized abortion millions of women obtained illegal abortions every day.. And women died from unsafe, illegal abortions. Women bled to death. Women died from unsterile conditions, died of massive infections. Women died and women were maimed. Each year, thousands of wives and daughters, mothers and aunts, perished from botched illegal abortions. Do we want that to come back? This is another area where pro-choice is truly pro-life: pro-woman's life. Pro-choicers care about this tragic and needless loss of women's lives. Think about that why don’t you!

 
At December 6, 2008 at 11:28 AM , Blogger Myself said...

Bottom line....it is the womans choice. Who are WE to tell another woman what she can and cannot do with her own body??? you dont have to be for it...or against it....but if YOU were in predicament....where at a point in your life you were not prepared...wouldnt you want to be able to decide for yourself what to do??? granted....perhaps there should be a point in a pregnancy where if youre a certain amount of time along that abortion couldnt be preformed, but again....i wouldnt dare tell another woman what to do. i dont think pro choice is PROMTING abortion...but it IS promoting the right to choose. this is something i am greatful to have as a woman.

 
At December 6, 2008 at 12:12 PM , Blogger Z-man said...

Erik, how is abortion even a religious issue? I think the pro-choice people bring up the religious angle far more than the lifers do.

 
At December 6, 2008 at 12:18 PM , Blogger Z-man said...

I started browsing through the rest of the posts here, government enforcing morals on people seems to be the theme but I've always said there should be a pro-choice Twilight Zone series on TV, the choicers come up with the most nightmarish scenarios. To hear them talk you'd think just because Jimmy or Susan down the street are ardent pro-lifers they're gonna somehow take power in a couple of weeks and come down hard on everyone else. It doesn't work that way folks. If abortion is ever banned in the future a moral consensus on the issue will have to exist first.

 
At December 6, 2008 at 12:26 PM , Blogger Z-man said...

So the deal is this, as Danny said in his blog "no democratic government can act in advance of the moral will of its people." Read that again, it's key. Now the choice camp has been saying for years now that the vast majority of Americans agree with them so why are they losing sleep over the issue? This ain't a dictatorship or a communist system. So I have pro-life views along with many other millions of Americans, what of it? I've a right to my views no? and if abortion is ever banned or even meaningfully restricted it'd be society speaking with one voice. As ardent as our pro-life views are we ain't that Billy Mumy kid to continue the Twilight Zone theme here, we can't wish the choicers out into the cornfield.

 
At December 6, 2008 at 12:32 PM , Blogger Z-man said...

Myself said: "Bottom line...it is the woman's choice."

But since you're so big on choice are you for informed choice and there is a difference. Does a woman not have the right to know what her fetus even looks like? I call them the anti-informed choicers. By repeating the mantra of CHOICE over and over again that doesn't make you pro-choice anymore than me reciting some ancient Hebrew texts makes me a Kabbalist. Mean it!!

 
At December 6, 2008 at 1:49 PM , Blogger Myself said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At December 7, 2008 at 5:19 AM , Blogger Myself said...

Listen, you holier than thou moron before you go around belittling other people's comments, look to your own conscience and don’t you put me down .
You, sir, are a hypocritical douche bag.
I would appreciate your opinion if you weren’t such a BLOWHARD!
Who the hell are you to preach to me about anti-informed choicers? When you are in a women’s body then you can “Inform” me. Until then, shut your big preaching mouth!!!!!
Don’t you dare and sit there behind your stupid computer with your ass up in the air preaching to a women about being informed about HER body. You have the nerve to tell me about repeating the mantra of CHOICE over and over again? You and your bunch of Religious nuts have been preaching this SHIT over and over again since I have been reading you blogs.
And by God, if you have intelligence enough to see anyone else’s side, you might let them to at least form their own opinions. I don't have a holier than thou attitude as you all do, I don’t tell anyone what to do or what to say or how to live their lives … So don’t tell me how to do anything.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, some feel the need to push their personal feelings on others. The author of this blog opened the discussion up for comments and asked for opinions and that is just what I gave . If you and your bunch of groupies are pro-lifer’s then so be it. Give you thoughts and opinions and don’t shove it down anyone else’s mouth…….. I don’t want to force my opinion on you or anyone else, why can’t you do the same? Why are you religious extremists so demanding that you won’t let anyone else disagree with you? I'm not forcing you to my side. So don't dictate what I can or can’t do or say. Now go play in traffic like a good little boy.

 
At December 7, 2008 at 2:05 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

it is the womans choice."

Why? It's not her life she's taking.

 
At December 8, 2008 at 12:09 PM , Blogger PhantomMan said...

What turns people into passionate foes of abortion?
I think it's because Pro-lifers are stupid and selfish.
Did you ever notice on this very board when engaging a person who does not share the same belief system as yourself it is only common knowledge to use polite and educated terms in attempt to make your point seem valid and educated right?

Not the pro lifers!!!! Vulgarities, slurs, carrying on like small children told "no".
Screaming at women who disagree with their stance, calling them names, throwing things at them while they are attempting to receive medical care?
Silly me but I wouldn't consider that something very "pro life".
I would think of that as "anti life" or "anti health care" maybe simply immature because these people do not agree with the standards they insist everyone must live by.

Maybe they didn't get the memo that we live in the United States of America and not Iran. Women here have freedoms, just as much as the men of this country. They cannot be forced to believe what someone else thinks is right or wrong.

Morals are subjective. What YOU may think is moral, the next person may not and in this country that is fully acceptable.
I think Gay Marriage is a great idea and benefits for everyone in this country. You may not.
I think abortion is necessary in todays society.
You may not.

Idolizing such ignorant, racist, uneducated figures like Ann Coulter or George W. Bush only shows yet another downfall of the "pro life" side.

Pro life? Until birth of course. Then the are on their own. Personally I think that the "pro life" movement should stop calling themselves Pro Life and correct the term to what they really are. Pre Life.
Anything to get those fetuses born then screw 'em! let them just be unwanted and street kids.

 
At December 8, 2008 at 12:31 PM , Blogger Z-man said...

Myself I love you too but you're not pro-choice.

 
At December 8, 2008 at 12:39 PM , Blogger Z-man said...

Logically if you're not anti-abortion then you're pro-abortion, why is that so hard to grasp? The pro-choice movement is the only movement that I can recall absolutely afraid to state what they are really fighting for, it'd be like if those women suffragettes said "we're ashamed to admit it but we're fighting for a woman's right to vote." You can't passionately fight for a Negative, read my latest blog about this. Philosophically you have to be pro-abortion to fight for it so hard, you have to see at least some positive social good in it otherwise that makes you irrational. I would say Erik here is pro-choice and nobody else here is. But if you're gonna insult get it up above a notch beyond douch-bag, that's too Howard Sternish, aim higher, perhaps a Jon Stewartism. If it's funny I'll laugh.

 
At December 8, 2008 at 12:58 PM , Blogger Z-man said...

PhantomMan said: "What turns people into passionate foes of abortion?"

Dunno, what turns people into such passionate foes of the fetus? I would hazard a guess that with us pro-lifers if you accept the science you were taught in high school, if you begin with the premise that abortion is the taking of a human life I guess you'd be kinda somber about it no?

"Maybe they didn't get the memo that we live in the United States of America and not Iran."

I honestly think the pro-choice movement thinks the Antichrist is gonna be some average pro-life schmuck who lives down the block who in a matter of maybe six weeks time will magically become the leader of, what was it again? the United States of America and ban not ONLY abortion but sundry methods of contraception as well. Oh well last I checked it's an arduous path full of checks and balances and that pesky thing that Danny referred to as the moral will of the people. I could be even 100 times more pro-life than I am now and it ain't gonna happen, no way I can force my views and morals on others even if I wanted to so try to get some sleep tonight ok?

 
At December 8, 2008 at 1:02 PM , Blogger Z-man said...

"Morals are subjective..."

yeah, until your house gets robbed

"...What YOU may think is moral the next person may not and in this country that is fully acceptable."

Which is why we have crime and so many other social ills in this country. ALL law is based on some kind of objective moral code I'd think.

 
At December 8, 2008 at 1:11 PM , Blogger Z-man said...

Anonymous: "it is the woman's choice" Why? It's not her life she's taking."

Good point. You know if I didn't know any better and were surfing through cyberspace I'd think I hit upon a hot discussion of a woman's right to prostitute herself or take drugs or even her own life. It gets tricky around the 5th month though when you begin to know you're gonna have a little boy or a little girl, the whole it's her body thing I mean. HOW do you get around that one??

 
At December 8, 2008 at 1:49 PM , Anonymous RainMan said...

Hey "Z" man... that was not Anonymous, that was your friend Beth.

 
At December 8, 2008 at 2:19 PM , Blogger PhantomMan said...

Are you under the misapprehension that late-term abortions are against the law now? Too bad you are incapable of actually comprehending what the decision by the SCOTUS really did. It outlawed ONE TYPE of late-term abortion; the one that is the safest procedure for the woman having it. Late-term abortions are still permitted; the only thing different is that doctors must now use a method that involves using more internal dismemberment of the fetus than the D and X procedure did.

 
At December 8, 2008 at 3:05 PM , Anonymous T R said...

"Not the pro lifers!!!! Vulgarities, slurs, carrying on like small children told "no"."

Looking back on the comments, I've noticed that the pro choicers are the guilty ones. For example: Myself said:"Who the hell are you to preach to me about anti-informed choicers?", and "shut your big preaching mouth!!!!!", and "Don’t you dare and sit there behind your stupid computer with your ass up in the air preaching", and many others. So don't say that pro lifers do that when all of this was in the pro choicer comment above.

 
At December 8, 2008 at 3:43 PM , Blogger Bob said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At December 8, 2008 at 3:46 PM , Blogger Bob said...

Your posts aren't convincing anyone so I wonder why you insist on posting uder that stupid T R name!

 
At December 8, 2008 at 4:00 PM , Blogger Bob said...

Looking back on the comments, I've noticed that the pro choicers are the guilty ones. For example: Myself said:"



Well actually Beth, she was replying to that post made by Z man who went a bit too far in his finger pointing, so what did you expect?

 
At December 8, 2008 at 8:02 PM , Blogger Beth said...

I wasn't going to comment, because I am growing tired of the childish bahavior of some people here who instead of keeping to the topic prefer to make false assumptions about me. But because Daniel does such a fine job at his blog, and I don't think he deserves this sort of behavior, I decided to say something. I think we should stick to the topic presented by Daniel, and if at your blog you want to gossip and call names, that's your prerogative.

 
At December 9, 2008 at 3:55 AM , Anonymous Bleeding heart liberal said...

Beth said...
to make false assumptions about me



YEAH Right! lol

 
At December 9, 2008 at 4:44 AM , Blogger Beth said...

Since I could care less what anyone thinks about me, I have no reason to use other identities. You know there are more pro-life people than just Daniel, Z-man and I out there, and they don't all have Blogger accounts!

My suggestion to keep to the topic is because it is the fair thing to do for the author of this blog, and when I debate I prefer dealing with the issue of discussion without the drama from the peanut gallery.

 
At December 9, 2008 at 7:03 AM , Blogger David#999 said...

Beth the Hypocrite said..
"My suggestion to keep to the topic is because it is the fair thing to do for the author of this blog, and when I debate I prefer dealing with the issue of discussion without the drama from the peanut gallery"


who cares what you suggest, you are such a hypocrite. You only care about your own beliefs, so why would the world care about you? ... You're such a hypocrite! You whine about every thing in the world?

At last you found someone that agrees with you.. these 2- or 3 other religious fanatics that you have named.

 
At December 9, 2008 at 7:07 AM , Blogger Z-man said...

You know regarding this area of moral relativism vs. moral absolutism it's as if the choicers here are reveling in ambiguity, in ambivalence, the worship of the uncertain which is what subjective morals are all about. Relativism is overrated since by its very nature you don't make progress or even near conclusions on issues. Anyway read my latest blog over at www.not-the-left.blogspot.com entitled "Catholic hospitals to close under Obama". The pro-abortion movement is not about choice after all and a country under the Freedom of Choice Act, it'd be fascistic. What is being proposed is pure evil at least in the democratic sense and if I blog about anything now it'll be that.

 
At December 9, 2008 at 7:16 AM , Blogger Z-man said...

Re blogger Dave I've lost count of the number of times the pro-aborts here have brought up religious references but for starters if you read the wonderful column in yesterday's New York Post by Ray Kerrison Obama, if he signs into law FOCA is effectively declaring war on the church by forcing religious hospitals and health-care institutions to provide abortions in violation of their conscience. So perhaps it is hostility to religion that I am finding here. Beth and I can't impose our beliefs and values on the rest of you anyway because our democratic system prevents this, there has to be a consensus on these type issue first before any laws are even passed. Me going into the voting booth pulling the lever for a pro-life candidate IS MY RIGHT and there's nothing undemocratic about it. Since the subject of faith has been brought up here by the other side let's turn the issue around with why are atheistic and agnostic creeds so aggressive towards the rest of us? maybe that's the real issue.

 
At December 9, 2008 at 7:27 AM , Blogger Z-man said...

Can I make a suggestion here? Since the pro-feticide people are so interested in the subject of religion I propose they enroll in some divinity school or something.

 
At December 9, 2008 at 7:42 AM , Blogger Bob said...

The Z guy said: "Since the subject of faith has been brought up here by the other side"


Who did that?

I don't even know your faith or the faith of anyone else.

It is religion in general that was suggested as the reason for being so adamant about abortion

 
At December 9, 2008 at 9:43 AM , Blogger Z-man said...

It's like relativism and moral subjectivism is a permanent philosophy with all of you and you're proud of it. So who brought up the subject of religious extremists and nuts? Honestly I've lost track. Let's say I go to church which I do and passionately practice my religion, also true, let's further say I'm into different religious and spiritual topics, it's just interesting is all in no way do I force any religious beliefs on people when discussing abortion. Is abortion a tragedy in the eyes of God? I believe so but in no way is that or should that be the basis of any policy regarding abortion. It's almost because I'm spiritual I can't be against abortion because it strengthens others' debating points. I simply stick to the Constitution as such. I'm also against the death penalty due to my religion, "vengeance is mine saith the Lord" but I think other death penalty opponents would simply agree with me and we'd keep it on a very democratic and non-religious level. Martin Luther King was a preacher of course but we don't then say the whole civil-rights movement is somehow invalid because of it. I'm perfectly cool with the separation of Church and State but don't know why pro-life laws are somehow unjust under such a system. Everyone almost seems to be saying that there are no valid non-religious reasons for being against abortion.

 
At December 9, 2008 at 11:25 AM , Blogger collins calling said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At December 9, 2008 at 11:31 AM , Blogger collins calling said...

Ok, I'm gonna make this as this as short and sweet as I can.. .im angry at those Religious nuts who show up to my door to tell me about the apocalypse... I DONT CARE! Ill eat pork all I want, say Goddamnit 75 trillion times a day and sit nude in a tub full of jello if I goddamn well jolly feel like it! and please, dont say the word Jesus, 200 times or more in a 3 minute conversation.... I dont even think god says his own name that much,,, and dont always say god bless you... ever wondered if perhaps someone doesnt want to be blessed? Maybe someone is in an especially sadistic mood, he wants to be damned... do you say goddamn it? Here I got an idea:
Buddhists durnig the 'nam war set themselves on fire right? Well, lets see some evangelical nus cases do the same alight??

Yes, I'm damned angry at these religious morons who try to legislate their morality on me, come knocking at my door telling me if I want to hear about Jesus, and standing in front of an abortion clinic telling women they are going to burn in Hell. Here's some news for you religious freaks. Wars are started in the name of God; people are killed because God told someone close to them that they are evil; people are murdered
because they are deemed evil (e.g. abortion doctors). Why don't you hypocritical fanatic's find a worthwhile cause, like trying to prevent child abuse. But no, you would rather prevent abortions by a person who probably has no business having children in the first place.

I'm tired of hearing how I am going to Hell for not joining YOUR particular brand of religion. If there's one thing you should remember, God gave us free will, which means we have the right to choose. By trying to have laws passed to legislate your morality, you take away a persons free will.

These Mormons who come knocking at my door. I used to be nice; but they kept coming back. I finally got pissed and told them why their church was the biggest hypocritical CULT on the face of the planet.

those fucking Jehovah's Witnesses and Bible-thumping Mormons knocking on my door and bothering me as if I care to listen to a lousy persuasion week in and week out? What part of my sign, which reads "No solicitors!", do they not understand? They also keep littering my front porch and driveway with their literature that I do not care to read.

Yes, the Bill of Rights gives us guarantee of the freedom of religion (if Jehovah's Witness is really a religion at all), but that does not mean certain groups have the right to impose their "religious" practices or pester us either. One of those misguided Jehovah's Witness stooges even had the nerve to call the religion I practice (Buddhism), and I quote, "a bunch of hocus pocus". Those sanctimonious jerks have got to go away from the neighborhood.

I am totally pissed off with you religious freaks whatever religion you want to promote whilst criticizing my life style. Worst of all: with our President we are now officially a fundamentalist country, no better or worst than that of our perceived religious 'enemies'. Screw them all up the waszool.. And these Jehovah's Witness knocking on my door. I don't want to hear their anti gay outrage, their anti-Muslim rhetoric, their anti abortion bullshit and their bible quotes. Bug off all of you!

I'll have premarital sex when I want to, I'll eat what I want to when I want to! This is why I stopped going to church. Believing in God is enough for me. I don't need you nuts tell me of my girlfriend not to have an abortion if we want to have one! Get it?
You people are the most moronic intolerant pieces of shit on the planet, though according to them it is everyone else who is intolerant of their views. They are PC zombies who want to make sure that nobody is offended by any kind of religious references in anything..\..

And now these the religion Nazis are so in love with themselves that they would like to take the words "In God We Trust" off our money since it offends their delicate sensibilities. This is just too much because god forbid, excuse me ethnically inclusive non-religious politically correct sexually androgynous figure forbid that anybody reference the fact that our country was founded by mostly Christian (at least Judeo-Christian philosophy influenced) men. These words have never hurt anyone, they have never given anyone cancer, or flown a plane into someone's World Trade Center, or exterminated Jews in a concentration camp, so just leave them the fuck alone. These people are in love with "progress" (or their twisted version of it) for its own sake, and can't leave any tradition well enough alone. Instead they prefer to attack harmless abbreviations and phrases, then sit around jerking each other off about how freaken tolerant and enlightened they are.

I am angry at the hypocrisy of Christians who are against abortion. Every professed Christian I have met who is against abortion has said that women should put their unwanted babies up for adoption instead. Yet, NONE of the Christians who has said this had adopted any children! It's a blatant case of "Not in My Back Yard", "It's someone else's job.".
Was that short and sweet enough for you?

 
At December 9, 2008 at 11:42 AM , Blogger Z-man said...

Short and sweet collins? all you pro-aborts give are dissertations and my library time is limited. When you get right down to it the pro-aborts have to resort to force and coercion in order to ensure their version of a woman's right to choose so if liberty and choice ultimately depend upon someone else losing their liberty, in this case a doctor being forced to perform abortions they're fine with that. I don't care what you say, everybody has a conscience and that's why everyone of whatever political stripe keeps coming back to this issue, the worm of conscience.

 
At December 9, 2008 at 11:46 AM , Blogger Z-man said...

One thing I don't get though is the pro-aborts here and elsewhere seem to decide the morality of abortion by the personal nature of those opposed to it when it's really irrelevant. I'm not getting this one, you all rant and rave like a bunch of banshees, you're frothing all over your keyboards, in short you're all pro-abortion and I don't hear any modulations like Erik offered. When you cut through all the pro-choice bullshit it's all about being for abortion. It's like you're saying to the unborn child "it's nothing personal, you're just in the way."

 
At December 9, 2008 at 11:51 AM , Blogger Z-man said...

& another thing, nobody here has called Obama the Antichrist and for the record I don't think he is, he doesn't have the experience.

lol

So so much for apocalyptic and rhetorical fireworks coming from our side. You people truly are a nasty bunch, can't address points directly but come up with puns and insults that even Jon Stewart would keep out of his routine as being unworthy of him and not even funny. At least if Carlin were alive he'd have beat you all!

 
At December 9, 2008 at 11:56 AM , Blogger Z-man said...

I have to go now, my session is almost at an end. I have to be careful getting up and not slip on all this emotional diarrhea, mental spasms, anti-religious ejaculations, incoherence and always always the spelling and grammatical errors. It doesn't pay to bang your keys in a hurry like an angry monkey. So what's up tomorrow, the projectile vomiting?

 
At December 9, 2008 at 12:14 PM , Blogger collins calling said...

And another thing,You ignorant piece of slime. You worthless piece of disgusting puke.
No where in MY post did I say anything about being anti abortion.
I said PRO- CHOICE are you so incoherent that you can't get that through your simple minded thick skull?
Talking about emotional diarrhea!

 
At December 9, 2008 at 12:20 PM , Blogger collins calling said...

Awesome comment Z man and very Entertaining as well may I add.

You are a great example of why people SHOULD have abortions.

 
At December 9, 2008 at 6:48 PM , Blogger Daniel Ruwe said...

Okay, I haven't checked the comments for this post for a few days, and was a bit surprised to see it had over 50 comments.

Unfortunately, only a few of those comments had any value--the rest were stupid namecalling. So I'm closing this thread.

I could go into Blogger and tighten the comment restrictions, but I don't want to do that. So just know that any more comments to this post will be deleted. Commenting on other posts is fine.

 
At December 13, 2008 at 9:47 AM , Anonymous SarahG said...

When you give a woman the right to chose what she wants to do with her body she will not do what another woman is doing. Women will make the decisions unique to their situations. Some will keep the babies, others will abort, others will the babies up for adoptions. ......but she is the one carrying the baby, she is the one throwing up in the morning, she is the one with odema, DO NOT tell her to carry the baby for nine months, let the doctor cut her up for delivery then give the baby up for adoption. If she does not want to go through all that hussle, nobody reserves the right to make her do it unless they will carry the baby with her and bear the pain of delivery with her..... PLEEEEEEEASE!
Note to Beth, your pre-occupation with abortion is beyond belief!

Unfortunately, this is an arguement I have had soooooo many times and I know firmly where I stand and sometimes I feel like people think that carrying a child is such an easy thing and "ohhhhh just carry it for the nine months and you can give it up for adoption" and unfortunately some women do not want to carry the child for that nine months and nobody reserves the right to tell them that they must. It is not about the choices that we women make but the freedon to have those choices! One person may feel that is is totally wrong for a woman to terminate her pregnancy but that is how you feel and hey...... too bad! I prefer to give the women her own choice.
Making the choice to have an abortion is hard enough without any guilt being put on the woman. It IS her body and ultimately HER decision.

 
At December 13, 2008 at 9:54 AM , Anonymous SarahG said...

Daniel, Your choice on not allowing comments to be made with moderation only is a bad one.
You have to only look at the amount of comments made here and the amount of comments made on your blogs since to see the results of the way your readers feel about the subject

 
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